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Junk or gaff?

  • 25 Jan 2011 12:40
    Quote
    Reply # 506921 on 505465
    Deleted user
    Maxime Camirand wrote: Ok, so I'm convinced; a gaff rig is out of the question!

    Jeff: Nice model of boat, but what happened to the poor thing's interior? No wonder it's listed for $16k... 

    Listed for $16k and not moving. But it seems that he prefers it. Nothing's perfect. I think Annie's lived in worse!
  • 22 Jan 2011 23:34
    Quote
    Reply # 505465 on 504526
    Anonymous member
    Ok, so I'm convinced; a gaff rig is out of the question!

    Jeff: Nice model of boat, but what happened to the poor thing's interior? No wonder it's listed for $16k... 
  • 22 Jan 2011 02:58
    Quote
    Reply # 505061 on 504446
    Anonymous member
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Stavanger, Fri. 20110121

    Graham, yes I agree with you one hundred percent! A big gaffsail like that really can make a man feel small. In younger days I used to sail in a friend’s 40’/20ton Colin Archer with a gaff cutter rig. The mainsail was about 60sqm, close to "your" schooner’s mainsail. Hoisting it was definitely a 2-man job. Sheeting it was a pain and reefing a real challenge. Luckily that boat hove to very nicely so everyone could join forces when reefing. What a contrast to handling the 49’/23ton Samson with its 107sqm JR schooner rig. Svein Magnus Ueland, the owner regularly hoists the 70sqm (753sqft) mainsail without help. He frequently sails Samson alone – and he really sails.

    I have a soft spot for gaff sails but even with every "easy tricks" applied; I would not want to handle much more than 20sqm of it alone. The fact that I now handle a 48sqm sail alone on my Johanna is only because it is a JR. Period.

    Arne

    I am really looking forward to going for my first sail on Arion under junk rig, sail area is 35.7 sq m.  Should be sailing by May.  David has persuaded me to go for a cambered sail after all, and has modified my original plan to suit. It's an HM sail with a transitional panel like Johanna's.  Thanks for all your advice.
    Last modified: 22 Jan 2011 02:58 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Jan 2011 14:46
    Quote
    Reply # 504526 on 499796
    Deleted user
    Here's a seaworthy junk sloop for sale in California. I've been saving this in the forlorn hope that I might get enough money to buy it, but that's not likely to happen. Take a look here: http://www.kabai.com/seablossom/
    Last modified: 21 Jan 2011 14:46 | Deleted user
  • 21 Jan 2011 11:38
    Quote
    Reply # 504446 on 499796
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Fri. 20110121

    Graham, yes I agree with you one hundred percent! A big gaffsail like that really can make a man feel small. In younger days I used to sail in a friend’s 40’/20ton Colin Archer with a gaff cutter rig. The mainsail was about 60sqm, close to "your" schooner’s mainsail. Hoisting it was definitely a 2-man job. Sheeting it was a pain and reefing a real challenge. Luckily that boat hove to very nicely so everyone could join forces when reefing. What a contrast to handling the 49’/23ton Samson with its 107sqm JR schooner rig. Svein Magnus Ueland, the owner regularly hoists the 70sqm (753sqft) mainsail without help. He frequently sails Samson alone – and he really sails.

    I have a soft spot for gaff sails but even with every "easy tricks" applied; I would not want to handle much more than 20sqm of it alone. The fact that I now handle a 48sqm sail alone on my Johanna is only because it is a JR. Period.

    Arne
  • 21 Jan 2011 01:28
    Quote
    Reply # 504321 on 499796
    Anonymous member
    I sailed from New Zealand to Tahiti on a gaff-rigged schooner in 1980 with a crew of three - I still remember the awe I felt when that 700sq foot mainsail was up, with its 35 foot long, 8 inch dia boom.  I was always happy when the sail was resting safely in the gallows and we were sailing under foresail and staysail.  It took all three of us to handle it most of the time and we were often a bit out of control.  The skipper had sailed across the Pacific the other way with just his girlfriend, and was always growling at me that I wasn't even as good as a girl but I noted she was no longer on board!  It looked fabulous but I'm happy to look at gaff-rigged schooners any time - as long as I am not shanghied aboard!
  • 20 Jan 2011 03:31
    Quote
    Reply # 502252 on 502016
    Anonymous member
    Annie Hill wrote: Hi Maxime

    I know the Colvin pinky and they are great boats, but heavy to sail.

    I've sailed over a hundred thousand miles with junk rig and over fifty with gaff.  As far as I'm concerned there is no choice.  Not only is the gaff rig much more work, it is also much more frustrating because the sails only work well for such a small proportion of your sailing, after which everything has to be boomed out, vanged down, etc, etc.

    Of course, if she's a really lovely boat and bearing in mind you've never sailed a junk rig so don't know what you're missing ... it might be worth it.


    Hi Annie,

    I spent all day thinking about David's and your response to my question. I think it was Lin Pardey who wrote about how to make your wife happy on-board a boat (sorry if it was in fact you!). With regard to that, I think that the gaff schooner would be fine for me, were I alone, because I do like the "sport" of sailing and am willing to deal with a little bit of hardship (especially since I don't know what I'm missing ;))
    However, it would make it much harder for my little lady to be happily involved in sailing the boat. She's a sailing novice and all of a skinny 1.59m (5'2")  and I can't imagine her wrestling the mainsail into a reef. She'd have a much nicer time on a junk, especially with a self-tailing winch for the sheet and hoisting.

    Another important point, paraphrased from your book, is that since it's much easier to make sail with a junk, we'd end up using the boat more for day-sailing excursions.

    Thanks for your thoughts!

    Regards,
    Maxime
  • 20 Jan 2011 02:30
    Quote
    Reply # 502220 on 499936
    Anonymous member
    David Tyler wrote: Hi Maxime, welcome to the JRA.
    I can't think of anything more labour-intensive than single-handing a gaff-rigged schooner! If you're young, with strength and energy, it's possible, but very tiring. A lot of fine voyages have been made, and are still being made, under gaff rig, but I for one would rather not sail if I couldn't sail under a more user-friendly rig.
    If the boat is really nice, consider that you might convert the gaff sails to what is known as "junkette". Not a very good name, it is basically  a gaff sail that has had junk-style stiff battens, and junk-style sheeting added. It will make the reefing much more sensible, at some cost in windward performance. To get that performance back, you can then get into the cambered panels that many use these days.

    Hi David,

    Thanks for the info. The junkette is an interesting idea. The boat really is a sweetheart, but that's part of the problem. It comes with rigging and sails in excellent condition, which are factored into the price (39 000 USD). It would be a shame to throw those away in order to change the rig. Frankly, it's such a pretty boat that I wouldn't want to change anything. If I bought it, I'd keep it as a gaff schooner.

    I may too eager to jump on the first smart boat I see, because I'd like to be living aboard next winter. As I mentioned, I've been dreaming of having a junk for years, but they're hard to find. I suppose I could do my own conversion. Maybe I should start a thread about the best "plastic classic" boats to convert... 

    Regards,
    Maxime
  • 19 Jan 2011 21:53
    Quote
    Reply # 502016 on 499796
    Anonymous member
    Hi Maxime

    I know the Colvin pinky and they are great boats, but heavy to sail.

    I've sailed over a hundred thousand miles with junk rig and over fifty with gaff.  As far as I'm concerned there is no choice.  Not only is the gaff rig much more work, it is also much more frustrating because the sails only work well for such a small proportion of your sailing, after which everything has to be boomed out, vanged down, etc, etc.

    Of course, if she's a really lovely boat and bearing in mind you've never sailed a junk rig so don't know what you're missing ... it might be worth it.
  • 19 Jan 2011 01:31
    Quote
    Reply # 499936 on 499796
    Anonymous member
    Hi Maxime, welcome to the JRA.
    I can't think of anything more labour-intensive than single-handing a gaff-rigged schooner! If you're young, with strength and energy, it's possible, but very tiring. A lot of fine voyages have been made, and are still being made, under gaff rig, but I for one would rather not sail if I couldn't sail under a more user-friendly rig.
    If the boat is really nice, consider that you might convert the gaff sails to what is known as "junkette". Not a very good name, it is basically  a gaff sail that has had junk-style stiff battens, and junk-style sheeting added. It will make the reefing much more sensible, at some cost in windward performance. To get that performance back, you can then get into the cambered panels that many use these days.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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